Show Notes
What people experience on the outside of an organization is often being shaped much deeper than they realize.
In this episode of Built to Last, Joshua and Lisa unpack the first pillar of The Risen Project: Character.
They talk about what Character actually means, why the inner life of a leader eventually affects the people and organization around them, and why visible success is not always evidence of a healthy foundation.
They also explore self-awareness, emotional intelligence, responsibility, integrity, resilience, courage, and the ways our strengths can become liabilities when left unchecked.
In this episode:
Why Character sits underneath Leadership and Communication
The “inside out / outside in” framework
Why some apparent business problems are really deeper people problems
Why responsibility and self-awareness matter so much in leadership
How strengths can become liabilities
Why growth adds weight
Why leaders can outgrow their current gifting or skill set
Why support structures matter as responsibility increases
When strengths become liabilities:
Drive → workaholism
Confidence → arrogance
Compassion → people-pleasing
Excellence → perfectionism
Vision → impatience
Loyalty → unwillingness to confront
Responsibility → control
Character Reflection Questions:
What is happening in my life right now that nobody in my organization can see?
Where am I consistently compromising what I say matters most?
Where does my calendar contradict my stated values?
What pattern keeps appearing in my leadership that might actually originate in me?
What am I currently blaming on my team, organization, market, or circumstances that I need to take responsibility for?
Who has permission to tell me the truth?
Who has permission to tell me no?
Who am I becoming while I’m building what I’m building?
What skill do I lack that is currently “eating my lunch”?
What skill do I need to acquire for the mission to move to the next level?
People may encounter your organization from the outside in, but what they experience is being shaped from the inside out.
If we’re serious about building something that lasts, we have to be serious about building a person who can carry it.
Built to Last is a podcast from The Risen Project exploring the three pillars behind healthy, enduring organizations: Character, Leadership, and Communication.
Episode Transcript
Lisa (00:00) Welcome to the Built to Last podcast. I'm Lisa and this is Joshua, and we are the co-founders of the Risen Project. And today we're here to talk to you about character. Mostly because our
podcast and our business and everything is built on three pillars character, leadership, and communication. And in our last episode, which you can go back and listen to, we talk more about why those three are the three pillars for it. But today we're going to talk about character. So you ready?
Joshua (00:34) I'm ready. The longer I live, the longer I walk with Jesus, the longer I help leaders and business owners. I love leadership, I love marketing strategy, I love the digital AI world we live in, but it it's crazy how it just all ends up coming back to character over and over and over again.
Lisa (00:57) Yeah,
it really is. So
Joshua (01:00) When you said
I don't know you said something that was freaking brilliant. So we've got this model, right? It's kind of this e concentric circles model of of our of our three pillars. And really it starts with, you know, if you're a believer, it really starts with your faith in Christ and that forms your who you are and that builds your
character from there that affects how you lead which affects your entire organization and then your communication strategy affects how you show up in the world and so the funny thing is
the your communication strategy, i.e. This podcast, i.e. Your social media, this is how you like experience us in the world, but really it's our character that is driving the whole flipping thing. So you may experience our podcast, our s social media in the same you know, your business and mission, but you can bring it back to your character, my character that drives the entire thing. And I thought that was just a brilliant I just gotta
did these like you know shred like homes like my god this I did you know and I build this whole thing out but you immediately saw what the kind of some of the implications and application model was and I thought that was that that's a really great way to understand why character yeah every
Lisa (02:37) It's inside out.
But it's but it's outside in that we experience it, but it's inside out that we express it. Yeah. So, yeah. So so when when we're talking about character at the Risen Project, what do we actually mean? Yeah. Like what are we actually talking about? I know
we so for context when we started the Risen project we were deciding between the words discipleship and character yeah and we landed on character and in fact in our last episode you might notice we talked more about discipleship because it shifted between then and now that was six months ago that we were
first podcast and then we felt like the Lord just like was like yeah no we're gonna do it this way yeah so I'll let you go on that
Joshua (03:29) Well
it's interesting because there's a lot of language out there. Discipleship is very churchy word, obviously, and we're we're we feel our mission is to help the body of Christ win wherever they're assigned and really two percent of Christians will ever be in full.
Time ministry. That means ninety-eight percent live and work in the secular workforce and are business owners, nonprofit leaders and employees and so
Discipleship we just felt wasn't a just the right language. But in discipleship and in church and ministry theological circles, a lot of them don't even use the word discipleship. They'll use the word spiritual formation and I think that's a really beautiful phrase because when you are a disciple and when you are in the process of discipleship, when you are being discipled, what is happening? My first pastor said it like this discipleship is doing the hard work of transforming your character into the image of Christ. And so your character is
Is really who you are. It it's old in some sense it's old language. Like in 1800s and you know in the Declaration of Independence or Father Fathers would like the word character, you knew in exactly what someone was describing when they would say a man's
Character. Right. And so we've lost the language because I b I I think our society's become more secular and
Jobless if I can just be honest and we we don't it's really all about the externals. It's about do I have the personality? Do I have the skill set? Do I have the sales tactics? Do I have the marketing strategy? It's all external vanity metrics. Do I have the car? Do I have the money? Do I have the s we become a very external society?
But really you still have a character even if it's a bad one. Right. And exactly as we've gone neutral.
Lisa (06:11) Character is new.
Joshua (06:12) It is a thing. We you have a character like a business a business has a character or a quality to it. Right.
You know, a piece of wood, they say, that you know, that piece of furniture, wood furniture has them character. Why? It's got some things that make it what it is. Right. Identify it. So identity might be another word. Your character is it's the it's kind of the makeup of who you are, what you do, why you do what you do. Your character defines you. Right. In a sense.
And you could use the word like soul. You could use the word like your heart.
Jesus says a lot, he speaks a lot of the heart in the scriptures. And really it's just the unseen stuff of you. But really it also shows up in the way you behave and speak and and so when I say character, it is a bit of the sum of who you are. Yeah. And and so who you are
drives what you do. I th I really love the way you say it's an inside out. We are an inside out species, whether we like to admit it or not, we have a soul, thoughts, will, emotions, a spirit. That is the stuff that comes out in our actions, our words, our patterns. That is the the inside does drive the outside.
Lisa (07:53) Right. Yeah, I agree. You kinda touched on this already, but can somebody I mean, l like we talked about the word n character is pretty neutral. Can somebody be gifted, strategic, charismatic, winning at life so to say, and they still have serious character deficiencies? I s personally I'd say I feel like all of us have some character
Joshua (08:21) Yeah, since he's There was one perfect character one person with perfect character whose name was Jesus Christ. The answer is yes. And and I I don't like to I mean we see it all the time. President of the United States, whether you like him or hate him, Trump, at this time, like
He's got a certain type of character, right? Like some of the decisions he made, like, what are you doing? Like the way he he shows up on public relations sometimes like is a disaster. But on the one hand, like he is charismatic, he gets things done right, he's been successful over real estate media, now president, lost election, came back like
You can be that but still have character issues. Let's let's go to a different presidency, Bill Clinton. Love by the people, effective. People would talk about how he he could meet you once in a crowd and six years later re see you again and remember your name. Deeply charismatic, but
had some flaws that we all felt out about, right? And so that's one space, but also like you've heard about the successful businessman who builds a seven figure, eight figure, nine figure business and dies alone, three marriages, his kids don't have a relationship with him. And so that's character stuff.
And then li lastly, like obviously, you know, it's it's almost a cliche, but we see it too often that a very charismatic, dynamic, very prominent pastor will that will build a huge church, a following, be used by God. But that does not mean he may not have real
issues that are unresolved and unright dealt with. And so I think your character also is about y you know, the broken and wounded and traumatized places in our hearts and our souls that we've not dealt with as well that manifest themselves in our leadership and sometimes actually end up sabotaging our last word. Right. And so that's why, back to it, that's why we we br like, you know, and we're dealing with a lot of just normal everyday leaders, blue collar workers, nine to five employees, sometimes sales managers, nonprofit leaders. These folks wouldn't say, I'm a big deal, but like I don't when we bring it up, it's almost like,
I'm like that's like let's address let's let's go there now while it before it gets to there and you've got all this extra pressure that might strain the foundations of your character.
Lisa (11:53) Yeah.
Yeah. I actually I wanna talk about that later. I got a question about that. But while you were talking it reminded me of this morning on our team call you were you were
you were discussing with us, how you wanted to switch so our vision statement is w helping Christians succeed was what we've been saying, but this morning you were like, I really feel like we need to change it to helping Christians win. And like,
Talking about character, like so many people associate a good character with somebody's success. But you don't really know but success I feel like is a one-sided thing. It's like you you just see that outside layer that what's what's presented to you outside. Exactly.
Joshua (12:47) Especially in Western America Christian
circles and not. It's about success equals and
Lisa (12:53) Material.
Joshua (12:55) n numerical success. That is success.
Lisa (12:59) Exactly. But winning is more f in my mind at least, I don't know if this is j like a just how I view it, but winning I feel like is like a full picture thing. It's like it's like my my family is winning, my friends are winning. Like I'm winning, right? Yeah, exactly. It's not like it's not just like one aspect of my life. It's it's the whole thing.
Joshua (13:26) Life,
right? Like this idea of like winning a life. And I think you get that a little bit. Like, you know, man, that w was a win. It's like, it's like success, I think, in our our context, especially our Western context, is we sacrifice many good and godly things on the altar of success. It's like this idol. And do we want Christians to fail?
No, but you know what God uses failing failures and in life to help us win. Right. You know what I mean? So I it's a little bit of semantics. But I think it just r resonates. We do want to see the body of Christ flourish and and having language that doesn't seem
cheesier you know what I mean like that does resonate like everyone wants to win, no one wants
Right. And so Exactly. You know, and I wanna w wanna life. I think about this idea of
Your days are numbered. I know that sounds morbid, but I
Think about it a lot, like I'm 44, about to be forty-five, we're gonna have three kids now. And you know, like making the most of your life. Like you don't like we say it all the time, like tomorrow is a promise. We've seen dear friends of ours go day with the Lord recently. We have friends with cancer who are y younger than me. I mean it's like life is not promised, and so like
What's the what's my old adage? It's okay to fail, it's not okay to suck. Right. And like we can't see the body cry suck. And sometimes like we need everyone needs help winning sometimes. Even the best athletes on earth have what? Coaches. And they've got trainers and they got people in their corner who are helping them win. And the best ones like we love
Ted Lasso. And the show is based on a particular coach is like it wasn't about the games, it was about helping these y young men become the best of versions of themselves. And I think it's something like that, like y you wanna have a you wanna test your character.
Get married. You want to test your character? Have kids. You want to test your character? Start a business. And then do all three of those with your spouse. And then you'll really test your character. And you'll show you know you'll see real and then do it at your house mostly. And that'll with screaming kids that are probably about to wake up. You'll you'll test your character. Lord Jesus, help this mouth. But
Lisa (16:36) Yeah.
Joshua (16:37) I've got some character growth I'm working on as well. So anyways. Sorry I digress.
Lisa (16:41) No, that's okay. So let's bring character back to business because that's kind of why why we're here.
Joshua (16:48) And when we say business we do mean whatever mission you're at. Every b every mission whether you're in ministry, there i that's a business in a sense. Like you've got an organization attached. You've got
Lisa (17:01) I I like too I like the word organization better because it's more encompassing. I should have said that. Yeah. So a lot of the times I'd say most of most people that come to us are looking for help with marketing. 'cause again, that's well the well not even that, it's that's the outside layer. Yeah. That's the that's what everybody sees, social media, Google, T V
commercials, YouTube, like literally all of that. It's it's all marketing and it's all the outside layer. But so much of the time we figure out almost immediately that it's not that's not what's stopping their growth.
Joshua (17:49) It's not gonna affect some
Lisa (17:50) It's
not gonna fix the problems. And a lot of the time it has to do with somebody typically leadership, character, some kind of development. It's not necessarily that the leader or the or the people in general have bad character. Correct. It's a level of awareness, I guess you would say.
Joshua (18:13) I
think I love this, when I also c when I use the word character, I immediately think of the word integrity. Now pause, thing when I say the word in t t integrity, I don't just mean you do what you say you're
gonna do, although that is an aspect of it. Think about a building. A building has integrity. Right. It's got certain things in the structure that allow that busin that building to stand. Likewise with the character of a leader, it
The the building may be building, but there may be some things lacking in the structure. It's not like you they've got bad character, it's that they don't have some things they need. Right. And that's I think is a really helpful distinction. Right. Because often your character also includes like your sk skill set, your habits, your way of approaching a thing, right? Your mindsets. All of that is you. Right. And so
there may be a learning gap. There may be anyways, I might be a jumping ahead.
Lisa (19:29) You're good. Yeah
Joshua (19:31) yeah, so like it's like you said, it's not they have most of the time anyways. Most people are like intentionally malicious, like poor character. Some people do have big blind spots. Right. Blind spots will eat your lunch and they do. Right.
I can think of yeah, immediately a few leaders jump in my mind. But yeah, you like and that's why a lot of the work we do, even when they I'm like I I start like sh you know me, I like I a lot of the work we do like stems from self-awareness and emotional intelligence because you shine the light of self awareness on
you and all of a sudden it's not just we have a marketing problem it's like I actually don't know enough about messaging, branding, consistency. Right. I'm not leaving my organization in a way that stays consistent long enough to actually get a thing. Anyway, go on a
Lisa (20:36) Exactly. Yeah. Yeah,
exactly. And it yeah, it's all like it's an ecosystem and all all works together.
Joshua (20:46) But the leader's character is the lead diamond now. And so oftentimes people will approach us because you know w we've got the digital marketing skill set, we've got the agency s side of things.
Lisa (21:05) But sometimes we sell them we don't even really wanna do their marketing yet and we wanna do performance coaching or we wanna do clarity coaching or
Joshua (21:13) Strategic consulting
because they think they know their problem but they actually haven't shined the light of self-awareness on them or their entire business operation. So more times than not, we start with either the strategic consulting half day or we do some emotional intelligence work because when you have greater self-awareness, greater awareness of what's really going on in the business, yeah, from a 30,000-foot view then you can have a better strategy to see like will this even help right
Lisa (21:49) Exactly. Yeah. And like not to say that like every problem that your organization is experiencing, whether it's organization organizational marketing, etc., is not to say like all it all of it is always gonna be a character issue. Right. Like sometimes things just suck.
Joshua (22:12) Subdiven
we got a deal.
Lisa (22:14) Sometimes your landing page just sucks. Sometimes your like your team meeting structure just sucks. Like there's certain
Joshua (22:21) There's definitely
Lisa (22:22) but
Joshua (22:24) tactics and things like that that have to be improved for sure.
Lisa (22:29) Right, but a lot of the times the w the work on the person, the work on your your own character really does help things develop and grow. I mean I know I've I mean I've watched I've watched our own team when since we've s since we've started doing more team development over the past couple months, our own team has just like flourished and it's like helped the business in itself grow.
What is what is your mentor, Dr. Coker? He has said
Joshua (23:03) Seventy
five percent of profit problems are people.
Lisa (23:07) Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. And that's based off of a a real
Joshua (23:11) product
yeah product, profit, productivity and the three what was it the three Ps it's a borrow it of a statement that like yeah eighty percent of your profitability productivity and I can't remember the last one are are in fact people
Lisa (23:31) Yeah. And that's based off of a real study. Like it's it's not just like a number that he threw out there. Yeah, it's like a a real thing. Yeah. So if you don't
Joshua (23:40) That's
what we're talking about when we talk about character. Do work on the character because maybe the character lacking is a skill, and that's always the case. There's usually always a skill gap of some kind.
Lisa (23:56) Maybe it's insecurity. Somebody needs a little bit more confidence to be able to be empowered to actually do their job really well. Like it it can be It goes on and on
Joshua (24:04) That's why I like Lily when I do performance coaching, I mean three fourths of it is just EQ and self-awareness work and then the rest of it just kind of just it just it just happens. Like the goal setting is skill acquisition, any type of organizational
change kind of just manifests itself. The path just kind of appears. Yeah.
Lisa (24:34) Yeah, exactly. All right.
Is there a danger in Christian business culture of spiritualizing success while ignoring emotional, relational, physical, or financial health?
Joshua (24:58) is there a danger to it? I mean I think always. I think I will say that
some of the Christian business market or space out there, I think it borderlines on prosperity gospel theology some time where now I don't see anything in the scripture that says
prosperity is not part of God's blessing and a part of good stewardship and diligence prospers, it says, right? Like, and so, but you know, it it that's half the equation. Like, so if you're stuffering, if there's loss, if there's
challenge if the market switches and you lose everything. So you're not blessed. See that's a lie from the pit of hell because God is with you, you're saved. Right. J the blood of Jesus has like washed you clean. Time
Lisa (26:05) And circumstances don't define
Joshua (26:07) and chance happens. Yeah. To us all the rain falls on the righteous and the unrighteous. And so and so
holding both of those in attention I think is really vital. Yeah. That success doesn't automatically mean you're blessed. It is a can be a blessing to God, but you can achieve blessing and gain the world and lose your soul. And so this is where good theology really matters. And this is where under the character banner, discipleship, theology, you know, spiritual formation really does matter.
We just put that under the the broader banner of your character formation. And so as a follower of Jesus, your discipleship, good theology absolutely matters because that will shape how you engage with the world, how you
the mindset you approach your business, how you do your deals, how you do your sales, how you do you put those things on the right priority. And I think as humans, you say the Christian business go, I just think as humans, we it's one of the three Gs a gold, g girls and glory. Yeah. Girls or guys, right? Girls what was the he Chuck Swidall just did like the forest
It's like a slit on a snake, you say. It's like sex, slush, and you get the idea. The lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and pride of life are always gonna be a temptation for anybody as you create skills and
assets and team and organization and momentum, you gotta watch it. And so I think I really go back to the words of Jesus as often as I can. What gain is what gain is it to gain the whole world and lose your soul? And I think we just saw, we've seen that over and over and over again. And I I hope
Some people, you know, I guess you gotta go through it before you you do it, but yeah,
Lisa (28:30) Yeah. Exactly.
Joshua (28:33) s
Lisa (28:34) So anyways. Yeah. So let's bring it back more practically. Yep. In the day-to-day. What what roles roles would you say habits have to play in somebody's character?
Joshua (28:53) I'd actually like to take it one step back. Okay. I've thought about this whole character thing a lot and so habits are like the kind of like where it gets flushed out. Right. I think there's some we it's often talk a lot about values. Right. Mission, vision, and values. In this in this context I use the the phrase maybe like character traits. And I think about what are those character traits that
are vital and that some some of sometimes folks often lack and I don't know that I've got the exhaust exhaustive list. I'm getting close. Right now I've got like nine or ten. I think there's more like twelve to fifteen. Some are most are I would say all of them are biblical. Some of them don't have to like express like chapter and a verse. But we can go into those if you like. I don't want to like spend a ton of time.
Like I'll j I'll just like riff like real fast. Let me see if I can go through them all. One is responsi responsibility. I think this is the foundation of leadership and literally we were made in the image of God and then God gave us what? Responsibility to steward the
Creation. He gave us, we are responsible. And so the way I ask it is: are you living leaving in
Or are you living reactively? Are you living in the victim mindset or are you living with the proactive? And we can all it's like a sliding scale. Some days you fall into that victim mindset. And that's number one, man. Like without fail when shit is the fan, excuse my language, and I'll sit one on one with the leader. It's like they're in they're they're on their heels and they're in that victim posture.
Lisa (30:56) Ready to play b ready to play the blame game.
Joshua (30:59) Yeah, like hey, like it's that and so you gotta get back on the front foot and like choose how you're gonna respond. Right. That's where your power starts. Like you cannot leave from a victim posture. You can and it don't go up.
Lisa (31:14) Yeah.
Joshua (31:17) 100%. So responsibility is where it starts. I've already mentioned integrity. And really in all s
Senses of the word. Are you the same person in front of the camera on the stage with your wife? Hopefully not completely, right? You
Lisa (31:37) Yeah.
Joshua (31:39) know what I'm saying? The character of your integrity as your thing grows, like are you strengthening your inner resolve?
So that would say this is a big one, it's huge, it's why I do a lot of what I do is emotional and intelligence and self-awareness. That is the closest thing to a silver bullet that I have seen in life of leadership. If s someone has blind spots and they have no way of letting that in, if they're not doing the work of understanding who they are, why they do what they do, they're basically just
running a program that they're not even aware of. They're just like, maybe that it's a good program or a bad one. Right. But that works until it doesn't work. And so EQ and self-awareness. Wisdom, you must be seeking wisdom, which if you're seeking wisdom, that means you're that means you're humble and you're teachable and you're
coachable and a lot of leaders be it be a insec insecurity or whatever trauma their junk they haven't faced they're not wise because they're not humble you could use the let me give you some corporate language in case you're prideful and you you don't want to realize that you're co you're not coachable or let me say it a different way do you accept feedback?
A lot of people don't accept feedback. If you don't accept feedback, you're prideful and you're foolish. That the scriptures will say, not me. So, and that'll just eat your lunch. It'll just take out your leadership. A few more resilience. You have to be able to bounce back from the harsh trips of life. I would almost put resilience.
It's kinda like
you know this brute of the spirit it says long-suffering patience there's a resiliency in that right like you you can't long suffer if you're not resilient. You can't stay the course if you're not. So then a few other things and mostly the fruits of the spirit is virtue.
Delayed gratification which I would just say is self-control in the sense or having a division.
Courage. Courage,
Lisa (34:37) What yeah.
Joshua (34:39) you have to you can know the right thing to do, but you have to have the courage to take the action. Right. And it can it can just taking any action requires faith and courage. And I would say courage and faith are literally two sides of the same coin. You will not have courage if you don't have faith for something greater. And if you don't have faith and courage, you can't
Take action. Action ungodly relentless action is required if you're gonna build a mission that lasts. So
Lisa (35:14) Yeah.
Joshua (35:15) I think those would be my b big ones. I'm sure I've got f few other ones, but
Lisa (35:20) Yeah.
Those are great. I love
Joshua (35:24) If you build if you build that
Lisa (35:26) I want you to re write a blog post on on the rest of them.
Joshua (35:29) Yeah,
if you if you but think about that, if you if you have a leader that's responsible, that's humble, wise, virtuous, self-aware, resilient, courageous,
Lisa (35:43) I would want to follow them every every day.
Joshua (35:45) Like
one hundred even if they don't they don't have the best marketing strategy. Yeah. Guess what? They'll figure it out. Because they're
Lisa (35:52) Yeah, exactly.
Joshua (35:53) humble enough to acknowledge it and wise enough to go learn about it. And so the character, if you have the right type of character, righteousness. That was the last one. It's like do you have a relationship with God that compels you to do the right
Lisa (36:09) Yeah.
Joshua (36:09) thing?
And those types of leaders who do the right thing, even if it cost them, people will follow them to the grave, man. You know, like so
Lisa (36:22) That's so true. Okay, I'm gonna jump ahead. Just for the sake of time. Sure. How can someone's greatest strength become destructive if it's not governed well, I guess you would say?
Joshua (36:38) So that's
a self-awareness thing, man. It's like every asset has a flip side of a liability. So my one of my strengths is I'm dominant. I'm a sort of I'm a driver. The the bad side of that is I cannot slow down enough to think things through in plan or messy details, right? Like she smiled. And so it strengths and weaknesses, right? Flip side of the same coin, every asset has a liability.
Yeah. I can overcome a challenge like nobody's business, but I'll also
Not be so nice in traffic.
Lisa (37:28) Yeah.
Joshua (37:30) Yeah, I'm impatient
in traffic 'cause I it's a ch challenge I have to get through, right? So, just using myself as an ex example, I can move really f I can move an organization really fast and get results, but I can scare the folks that are in it because the change happens so fast. Yeah. And so again, self awareness is like how does this asset
What's the other so what are the other ways it shows up and people experience it as? It's like here's the age old question, what's it like to be on the other side of me? Yeah. Yeah, and so sometimes your a a assets, it's like I'm really good with a hammer. But if all you do is smash the hammer when you need a screwdriver, yeah. It's that thing, right? So
Lisa (38:21) Yeah. I I wrote a list of what are some traits people frequently reward leaders that can actually be become vices if they're unchecked or governed as I said. Drive can turn into workaholism. Yep. Confidence can turn into arrog arrogance if not checked. Compassion can turn into people pleasing. Correct. Excellence can turn into perfectionism. Yep.
Which can turn into procrastination. Vision can turn into impatience.
Joshua (38:59) And
I could say and will often become self-
Lisa (39:06) Yes.
Loyalty can turn into unwillingness to confront or becoming a a doormat Yeah,
Joshua (39:17) I yes, ma'am.
Lisa (39:18) exactly. I think that's great. This is good stuff. And responsibility can turn into control.
Joshua (39:24) Yeah, or even could penance being overly responsible. Right? Like all of those are fantastic and I've seen those bear out every one of them. But here and
Lisa (39:33) Yeah.
Joshua (39:35) this is a great way to th maybe stop and think like, hey, where are your assets or maybe where are s
some of the strengths of yours, your organization, where or your team or your culture, where are they actually what's the dark side? Right. Right. What's the tails end of those heads? Right.
Lisa (39:53) Right.
Exactly.
Joshua (39:59) We should definitely make some sh turn outs for folks to show it.
Lisa (40:04) Hmm. I've
got I've got a list of questions at the end that I think I'm gonna just include them in the show notes.
Joshua (40:11) That's that's great. If you're finding yeah value in this, please like, subscribe, all the things, share with your t
Lisa (40:18) Yeah.
Joshua (40:19) team, with your leaders. We pray it's gonna help you add value.
Lisa (40:25) Right. So we touched on you touched on this earlier, but growth adds weight.
Joshua (40:31) Yeah.
Lisa (40:34) why is that? Why why would you say that is? Yeah. Cause
Joshua (40:38) Yeah.
Lisa (40:40) like I mean we've seen it again and again and I'm I'm sure you've seen it like
Something that works for a team of three. Yeah. Does not always work for a team of thirty. Yeah. And like I mean, you were talking about pastors that were running the race and then something happens and then like they built a multi-thousand church.
Joshua (41:05) Making a million dollar budget.
Lisa (41:07) Yeah. Grey like are impacting so many lives and then
Joshua (41:12) Yeah.
I think Craig Groeschel said something good. It's like simplicity breeds growth, growth breeds complexity, complexity kills her.
Growth. He sold my life. I've always said complexity kills. As the thing grows, I mean more people, more money, more stress, more complexity, and more more. And some people like the character, I wanna I don't wanna be the dead horse.
Can't the stress of it, they just can't deal with it, right? They it grows beyond their identity. I think that's a big one. It grows beyond their self-worth. That's a big one. Is they don't feel like they're worthy of it. I think a lot of the times the the people we see who blow up is they feel tryed. They actually are they feel out of their depth and they can't admit it to their
Lisa (42:25) Mm-hmm.
Joshua (42:25) You know, like these pastors, they're kind of like isolated on these little ivory towers. And 'cause like structurally they don't have anybody who can just they can be r real with honestly. And
Lisa (42:38) Yeah.
Joshua (42:39) they're afraid to like lose their jobs, lose and so I think they just sideways themselves just for an escape, honestly. But anyways,
Would you repeat the question? I'm sorry. Why does growing
Lisa (42:55) Why does the why does
Joshua (42:58) things add weight? I think it's just more. Yeah. And the weight comes from just the multiplicity of problems, people, and then your skills have to grow. Yeah. And I think that's the thing is a lot of people build something s significant through
charisma or through drive and that works until that doesn't work. You outgrow your gifting. You outgrow your skill set. Right. And so the people like who who really run the race is like that's why
humility and wisdom was on there because you've got to keep upskilling like that it's it's uphill all the way like you gotta grow your character you've got to grow your humility you gotta grow in wisdom you gotta grow in your ability like you just have to keep growing and I think a lot of people don't grow with their thing right and so and because I get it you get style you're like I don't want to do and like you're the if you're gonna achieve something great it's just gonna be you're just signing up for problem
Problems and problems and problems. And sometimes you know, I think that's why this sc scripture says, do not grow weary in doing good. Right. 'cause it is you can get weary of this good thing becomes a burden. Right. And that's why I think we'll do this in a different episode, but like this is w the why s having support structure, a well built support structure both in
Turnally and externally. That's kind of why we do it we too is because a lot of these leaders they're they are isolated under this weight and they can't carry it all. So so that's why we get to come alongside and strengthen them, encourage them, help them put the structures in place, the people, you know, anyways.
Because they can't. Yeah. It's all on them. It's like, my God, like you know wonder things don't last.
Lisa (45:11) Yeah.
So closing in closing, as I said I've got a list of questions for you listening to evaluate your own character. I'm gonna read through them really fast, but I'm also gonna put them in the show notes so that you can look at them yourself. But I think that these would just I don't know, just really help. So what is happening in my life right now that nobody in my
organization can see. Where am I consistently compromising?
Joshua (45:48) Pause. What is happening in your life that no one in your dis discipleship group knows about? What's happening in your life that your spouse doesn't know about?
Lisa (46:01) Right.
Where am I consistently compromising that I say matters most?
Joshua (46:07) Damn, girl, you played with some feet over here.
Lisa (46:10) Where does my calendar contradict my stated values? What pattern keeps appearing in my leadership that might actually originate in me?
What am I currently blaming on my team, organization, the market, or circumstances that I need to take responsibility for myself? Yeah.
Joshua (46:35) Yeah, screw with someone's op in
their j jump, man.
Lisa (46:40) Who has permission to tell me the truth?
Joshua (46:42) Come on. Come on.
Lisa (46:43) I think that one's really huge. And
Joshua (46:46) Who to
and let me say one more. Who has permission to tell you no as well?
Lisa (46:51) Right.
And and lastly, who am I becoming while I'm building what I'm building? Yeah.
Joshua (47:00) I'll give you one more. What skill do I lack that is eating my lunch right now? What skill do must I acquire if your mission is gonna go to the next level? I
Lisa (47:15) And
Joshua (47:17) give me one more. Where do you not wanna face the fact that you suck?
Lisa (47:23) Yeah.
Joshua (47:24) I I give you a hint. Ask your spouse, ask your team, but you have to be willing to hear the answer and not give them any backlash.
Lisa (47:33) Yeah. So in in cl like wrapping everything up, it's what people see on the outside that they encounter first, but it's really what's on the inside that's driving everything. And that's why that's why we always begin with the person. That's why we always begin with the individual and the character that they have.
Joshua (48:00) Because why? Have to be a leaderworth following. You gotta be actually be able to lead and you gotta get the word out. That's why we do the three pillars of The Risen Project.
Lisa (48:10) Yeah.
And if we're and if we're at all serious about helping people build what lasts, then we've got to be serious about building a person that lasts.
Joshua (48:23) Yeah. We wanna I'll lay on the plan with this is like, when I went to Bible school there was a guy, he's like I've seen guys come and go, he's like, I just wanna finish well. And I think one of my prayers I will often pray for myself or people is like
Jesus help me run the race until I see you face to face. After you've followed Jesus a while, after you pastor in any stretch of the time, you see people fall away and
And our heart is like we want to see you run the race to and finish well, no matter what you're called to do, but also just to finish well in your faith that it would last. Yeah, so on that note, thanks for listening to
Lisa (49:20) I was
I was gonna say, do you wanna pray over listening?
Joshua (49:24) Yeah, I would
Father, thank you so much for the chance just to be used by you to partner with you with what you are doing in the earth. Father, I pray that this would find the ears of men, women, leaders, new leaders, rising leaders, long time leaders.
People who feel called to step out in faith to do something for you. And I pray, Father, that this would put steel in their spine. I pray that this would be in conviction where it's needed, comfort and encouragement where that's needed.
Father, I pray that these people would run the race until they see Jesus face to face. I pray, Father, that your kingdom would come, your will would be done in and through everyone that hears us, and that they would be blessed. And we ask this in Jesus' name. Amen.
Continue the Conversation
Keep exploring character.
In Character Part 2: How Character Is Formed, Joshua and Lisa continue the discussion with a closer look at spiritual formation, habits, accountability, and the practices that shape who we become as leaders.
Take a closer look at your own leadership.
At The Risen Project, we believe lasting organizational growth begins with understanding the people responsible for leading it. Our Strategy Intensive helps Kingdom-minded leaders assess their character, leadership, and communication to identify opportunities for growth and develop a clear path forward.