Show Notes
Character isn’t formed in one dramatic moment. It’s built over time through motives, habits, discipline, repentance, accountability, community, and the choices we make when nobody else is watching.
In Part 2 of our conversation on Character, Joshua and Lisa talk about what character formation actually looks like and why self-awareness alone isn’t enough.
They explore the relationship between habits and integrity, the difference between virtues and vices versus strengths and weaknesses, and why the health of a leader eventually affects the health of the organization.
They also wrestle with a bigger question: What are you actually building toward?
Because something can be profitable, impressive, and successful by the world’s standards without necessarily being worth giving your life to.
In this episode:
Character formation vs. self-improvement
Why motives matter as much as behavior
The role of repentance, discipline, accountability, and community
Why self-awareness must lead somewhere
How small habits compound into character
Why integrity is often tested in decisions nobody else sees
Virtues and vices vs. strengths and weaknesses
How a leader’s character creates trust and culture
Why the health of the leader affects the organization
The Seven Fs: Faith, Family, Fitness, Finances, Friendship, Freedom, and Fulfillment
The difference between building something big and building something that lasts
How mission, vision, and values connect Character to Leadership
Questions to reflect on:
Where have I been compromising in my character lately?
Is there an area where I’ve been negotiating with God instead of simply obeying?
What virtue do I need to intentionally develop?
What vice do I need to actively resist?
Which of the Seven Fs needs more attention in this season?
Are the things I’m building aligned with what I actually value?
Am I building something that looks successful, or something I’ll be grateful to have given my life to?
Character is the foundation. And the taller the thing you’re building, the more that foundation has to be able to carry.
Built to Last is a podcast from The Risen Project exploring the three pillars behind healthy, enduring organizations: Character, Leadership, and Communication.
Episode Transcript
Joshua (03:44) Welcome to the Built to Last podcast. My name is Joshua Delp.
Lisa (04:08) And I'm Lisa Delp.
Joshua (04:09) And we are the founders, the co-founders of the Risen project, helping you build what lasts through the three pillars of character, leadership, and communication. Because we believe if you're stuck, if you're not growing, we have found it's one of those three pillars that needs to be addressed. Maybe all three. Last week.
Lisa (04:32) Last week we talked about character and what's in h and why what's happening inside of the leader matters and affects everything outside of them. And we did not get to all of our questions. So we are doing a part two and we're
really going to be talking about how character gets formed and what that means for the way Christians build and lead. So you ready?
Joshua (05:02) Let's do it. All right.
Lisa (05:05) So what does character formation actually look like?
Joshua (05:12) last week we discussed this idea of like the heart, the inner world, and even this idea that's gained a lot of traction in the past 30 to 50 years in ministry circles this idea of spiritual formation. It's kind of the same thing. Like when I say you're
character it's really the character of the individual the inner world that really it sums up the individual right the inside the outside the actions the motivations right your character in a sense is who you are w like i said last week like that language like when the founding
fathers were writing their many writings. The word character was a very well it was a very used word, but it's fallen out of vogue because we've become so outward focused, so results focused, so process focused, so success metrics was I believe the language that we use. So character formation, I would put on the kind of the same realm of spiritual formation. It is about developing
who you are. In a world where where that is obsessed with what you do and the results you achieve, it can feel pretty in
intangible that's because it is. Right. And so it's a and so these are this is ground that you have to like actually name the landscape first. And so it's a it's a good conversation to have because you can't just say
Joshua (07:03) I've got these measures for character. You've got to actually even name right all that, right? So I would just say it is a process. It's a pro inner process.
Lisa (07:15) Yeah. What what would you say actually changes someone over time?
Joshua (07:25) What ch I mean from a from a character development standpoint? Yeah. Spiritually, I mean it really back to the process. So we were in our team meeting and I was thinking about how much I've changed in two years and you couldn't like see it
Lisa (07:28) Yeah, from like
Joshua (07:53) You know, there there wasn't some big moment. Right. It was the process. It was and this is kind of s something I wanted to jump into that made me even want to do this as part of part two is something that we didn't really t talk a lot about last week is motivation. The motives of
the heart. The Pharisees were very earnest about trying to follow the law, but they were they were really measuring externals. And Jesus, if you look at the teachings of Jesus, how he confronted like you you know you
weigh your tithes of mint and dill and cumin, but you you forgotten the weightier weightier things of justice and mercy, right? And those are heart things, right? Those are like motives. Out of the overflow of a heart the mouth speaks. That's about your motives. Like it was said Jesus knew the heart of all men. Right. Right? It's like
The motives matter. Right. And I would say that character formation starts with your heart. It starts with your motives. It starts with I love this phrase. You've heard me say, like, well, why do you do what you do? And I think character formation and spiritual
formation really is about the transformation of your desires, of your motives, of the things that that you heard me use this phrase a lot, the drivers. Yeah. What's the drivers of this thing? And those are the motives. I see
Joshua (09:54) engine broom and so what changes people over time is letting God letting feedback letting others letting it something greater than yourself shape the innermost things of your heart your motives your mindsets your the things that
Lisa (10:07) Yeah.
Joshua (10:17) actually drive what you do. Right. Because it's easy to just change the behavior but not change you. Right. Behavior modification and we what we learned is it doesn't really work that well. Right. Why? Because you're not being changed over time. Right. So I don't know if that was a really good the process, right? Yeah.
Lisa (10:35) Yeah, no, that's right. So how is character formation different from self improvement, would you say? Or are they different?
Joshua (10:48) I would say it's kind of like t two sides of the same coin. I would say self-improvement.
Can be some of the fruit of character f formation, but like I just said,
Joshua (11:10) Yeah, I was in my mind, and this is a bit of semantics, right? Personal development is very self-focused in a in a sense and character it's like it's it's it is you but it isn't usually about you.
Lisa (11:26) It's more for the for the benefit of others.
Joshua (11:29) Yeah, it's it is for what you're called to do. Like if you have a calling, a business, a family, and your character isn't up to the task, everything else suffers. And if you're doing personal development, usually it's for your own personal development, right? So I I just think character development has a deeper
Ethos about it, if I could use that word.
Lisa (11:59) Yeah, no, I I can agree with that. You touched on this slightly and I think we talked about it in the last episode some, but not fully. What role do repentance, accountability, discipline, and community play in character formation?
Joshua (12:22) That was a really interesting progression. You said repeat it one more time.
Lisa (12:31) repentance, accountability, discipline, and community.
Joshua (12:35) So it's it's really interesting. I would go with I would switch it slightly, but it's basically you basically just d defined a inside the outside support structure for it. Like 'cause if it all relies on your
willpower or emotional resilience of that a day, your character development will it'll be it'll be star stop, start stop, right? Based on your level of motivation that day, how much sleep the children watch you have. So repentance is
one of the main drivers of the spirit, right? Like and that's a surrendering of your inner motive to the things of God. I would put discipline next because that's about your outward actions and the the consistency thereof. And then accountability is maybe your inner circle who is keeping you accountable and then
community is the broader support structure. Right. And so I would say all of those matter. And if you lack one of them, your character is gonna stuffer a bit. And this is the problem with isolated laders. Is because you can wear a mask and perform for a long time and people won't Right. Because the results are still there. And
No one can know that you're compromising your character, that you're not doing your daily discipline of Bible reading, that you're right letting sins or s secret whate you know what I mean? Like you know the cliche of the prominent pastor
Joshua (14:39) blowing up. Right. Or I think I use the example like Bill Clinton last time. Like he was a winsome, successful, effective leader on the world stage and yet his character compromise the stuff that no one saw, that compromised his entire leadership. We could you could look at you know, you can look at
s example after example below that and and that's why the support structure of leadership matters so much.
Lisa (15:19) Yeah. No, I I completely agree.
Joshua (15:22) And it all has to be working together, right? You're inside that's why we say character, leadership, communication, like it all works exactly together. We are like it all flows out.
Lisa (15:33) Yeah. So my next question basically I hear so many people say, especially today and today's age, like I know who I am and it's just who I am. And they kind of use it as an excuse.
Joshua (15:58) This is just
Lisa (16:00) This is just who I am. So why would you say self-awareness is not enough when it comes to character formation?
Joshua (16:11) Yeah.
I would I would say that that person does not have self-awareness. I think they've got barely enough to like like to s survive. Self-awareness, you hear me hear me talk about self-awareness a lot. I call it like the silver bullet. And it is. But really and it's it's so vital because it because it is the doorway into emotional intelligence, into sh sh shh.
Humility into pride into there's a baby trying to get into our our door. Yeah, it's the doorway. Self awareness isn't enough, but it it is vital. I would say self-awareness, usually self-awareness and
I'm sorry, this is really cute. Little baby fingers are trying to get Mother Get the baby. It's so cute. This is real life y'all building in the on the building a business from the home office today. What is she doing?
Lisa (17:19) Yeah.
Joshua (17:36) Just keep going. I can't. Yes, self-awareness is so vital because it is the doorway into emotional intelligence, into greater self-wisdom. But you can't have that without humility. And that that says this is just who I am. That's pride and stubborn.
Lisa (17:36) Okay.
Lisa (18:01) Well that's what I was gonna say. I feel like self-awareness it brings you aware of the things that are happening and as a Christian, self-awareness should in my opinion at least bring o bring awareness to your sin. Yeah. So that's where
Joshua (18:19) I wonder how far you've got to go and how go like
Lisa (18:22) Well th well then that brings you into repentance and discipline and accountability and community.
Joshua (18:40) Mother, get the baby.
Lisa (18:42) So
Joshua (18:47) Leave it that in. Maybe exit the first one out, but that was great.
Lisa (18:53) so so anyway, so yeah, so self-awareness brings attention to sin awareness. And like and not only not only sin awareness, but like how how is God moving in your life? How is God like it's not necessarily all the bad. It's
Joshua (19:09) Yeah. It's just it's just awareness. Awareness of the you I call it the good, the bad and the ugly. Exactly. Like it's
Lisa (19:17) Exactly. Then what do you do with that? You can't just be aware and then not do anything about it. I mean you can, but
Joshua (19:29) Yeah, I've s and I met leaders like that. Is that they they grew in s self awareness and they didn't walk through the door of into repentance, right? Accountability Exactly community and then they ain't leaned anymore. They ain't Exact. You know what I mean? And they wouldn't own the good, the bad and the ugly. Right. And so
Lisa (19:47) Right.
Joshua (19:57) Well, they're not in the game anymore and that sucks.
Lisa (20:00) Yeah. Yeah. So on that note, what roles then do habit play in character? I literally asked you this last podcast and like last episode when we were recording and you said hold on I wanna take a step back and then we never answered the question. So I wanna answer that question of what role do habits?
Joshua (20:19) Yeah.
Joshua (20:25) So you was number t two, or at least my version. You said
Discipline. Right after Repentance is discipline. I believe it was Aristotle who said excellence gosh I'm gonna misquote it. I had it when I saw this qu question.
Basically the idea is act that's a famous aristocle. Excellence is what you repeatedly do. Therefore, excellence is a habit, not an intention. It starts as an intention, that's the heart of the repentance thing, but it's gotta be borne out. Right. It's really just the law of reaping and sowing. Like if you sow something repeatedly.
You will reap it later on. I mean there's tons of stuff out here. I think like
James Clear wrote a wonderful book called The Power of Atomic Habits, exc excuse me. Just about the power of habits. There's this amazing book that wasn't like a bestseller, but it is it is awesome. It's called The Slight Edge. It's how things little things over time compound. It's like you know, the how they say compounding interests is the eighth.
Joshua (21:55) wonder of the world. Right. You put away a a hundred bucks a month. It's easy to do, it's easy not to do. And it and for a decade, it's like, why don't we do it? We're not getting anywhere. And then between the twenty-ninth and the thirtieth year, it more than doubles and you end up with like you know, tens of millions or you know, whatever it is. And it's that thing. It really is that thing.
I will say this, and and some people will s view that discouragingly. So well what why even bother if I'm not gonna even get there? But you can you can start to reap fruit pretty quick, you're re you're reaping fruit pretty quick, but man, it just goes exponential over time. And that's how you see folks who are 80 years old and they're athletes, or s someone
dies at s 65 from you're drinking themselves to death, right? Like it's it compounds for the negative the positive. Exactly. And so the little things do matter. Yeah. And that's an I'll just kind of jump into that. It is the little habits that no one sees that actually produce your character like
Lisa (23:18) It's not the huge big decision.
Joshua (23:21) If you're faithful in the small, you'll be faithful with more. And that's that that is that is that scripture applied. Right. Because like you're faithful with the small and then you just you you become faith you you are you are your character has earned the ability to be faithful with more, right? And so it is the s it's it's the
The workout when you don't feel like it. It is the water when you're you know, you know who cares about water, right? Like, you know, but it's the saying sh shoot instead of shit. Like that's why I'm working on that one. I love Jesus, but this mouth, y'all.
Lisa (24:11) It's the pausing to take a breath before entering into a conflict conversation rather than just jumping in heatedly. It's the yeah.
Joshua (24:22) I here's a really good example from my life that I realized and this is I think it's a great ex example. I went to ch check out at a convenience store or something and the woman gave me like er no s what was it? It was like
I underpaid or got charged like twenty-five cents less or something like that. And I was like, hey, like you, here's your order. And she's like, wow, I mean it's fine. But I'm just like, and I and I but I I was like, sweet, I just I didn't have to pay a quarter. And I swear the Spirit of God says, is that how much you're in?
Lisa (24:56) Yeah.
Lisa (25:22) Okay.
Joshua (25:23) integrity's worth. So it's actually the and I would say the character is made in the smaller the thing. Right. The thing that no one will ever see, that no one cares about even, but you know you're living by your
Convictions. Right. Which is like another great word that I love in in terms of like motives. Yeah. You use the word repentance. Convictions, living by your convictions, living with the right motives, living a repentant lifestyle over th time. That is the stuff that reads your character.
Lisa (25:57) Yeah.
I totally agree. Yeah. You answered my question.
Joshua (26:04) And it's not and it and it's not easy because guess what? You have to like lead all this. You we talked about accountability, but like people aren't gonna hold you accountable. You hold yourself accountable to the standards that you are fighting for. And sure, there'll be some external when you really start, you know, to build a lifestyle and you build it out, but like you have to build out your character, you have to build out your
convictions you have to state your motives. You who's gonna know if you're doing stuff out of the wrong motive? You and God, that is it man. And so and this is like this is why everyone gets on
Lisa (26:42) Only you.
Joshua (26:54) comfortable because it's like you gotta really open the chest and like examine why you're doing what you're doing and like this is the stuff that God sees and God judges. Like what's the scripture? Man looks at the outward but God sees the heart.
Lisa (27:14) Yeah, exactly. It related to that, kind of bringing it back practically to leaders and organizations, how do those little tiny decisions, those integrity checks and in my opinion is what kind of what you're saying. How do those eventually affect the team even if nobody's seeing them?
Joshua (27:40) Yeah.
Joshua (27:45) So this is where we started. I actually want to work on a model. It's like the three circles of character leadership and communication. Well, there's actually a little bit, there's pieces in between on either side. That's the bridges. Exactly. And so now we're kind of discussing the bridge, right? How does character influence your leadership?
One I will just say the word that jumps to mind is trust. The currency of an organization is trust. The currency of relationship is trust. The currency of
Joshua (28:34) Commerce and economic endeavor is trust. If I give you a thousand dollars and you said you were gonna do XYZ, I have to trust you're gonna fulfill your that's where it all breaks it down right there if you don't have trust and trust is built on your character, right? And so it's and
from there, actually I'll just I'll add another way. Your character is who you are. And so if you're a person who if you're a leader who cuts or corners when no one's looking, if you're a leader whose motive is really about them and their agenda, it is gonna cr create
And decide the psychological environment of the team of the environment your team is working in, and it will it will bring it into your
Culture. You can have all the nice values on the wall, but if your character does not live them out, no one gives a shit. It's lies. It's just lies. Right. It is lies. Lipstick on a pig. Yeah. It's that thing, dude. It's just lies. It's a mask, and you can perform and act for a while and maybe get r results, but it's the whole thing you'll gain the world and lose your soul. Like your company will have no soul, your team will not love.
Working for you you'll have higher turnover you know what I mean like it you'll your performance will then suffer. I mean it just
Lisa (30:13) It's reminding me of
Yeah, i you describing this reminds me, we have a friend who a couple months back lost his job, well was laid off from his job and the whole reason behind him getting laid off from his job was the company was basically going under. And come to find out, the founder of this company had built the whole thing on eyes. It was he
the the story was wrong, like the story wasn't true, the the values weren't true. They were all like picture perfect. Like you would like look at it and be like, wow, this is an amazing organization. And and like even talking to the guy, you'd you'd be like, this is a great guy, but then come to find out, hiding behind all of that was
It just a performance and the company crumbled because it wasn't built on a real foundation.
Joshua (31:23) I was literally about to say I love asking the question. Often I'll do strategic work with leaders and like, okay, we want to build this Y Z, we want to achieve this. And I'm like, you've got one person and you got this one. I'm like, and like you're you can't sustain it. And I I like to ask the question, how tall can you build a building?
And the answer is as tall as the foundation will hold. Right. And the structure will hold. Right. And so your character, you to use the metaphor, is the foundation that you build your and
Several.
Lisa (32:08) And whether that's the whole organization itself or just your team.
Joshua (32:12) You don't have to be the key leader for your character turn the matter. You're s you're still your character is still the foundational structure that you're building your life, your leadership, your performance, whatever you're called to do, your character, who you are, right is the foundation, not what you do. Right.
Lisa (32:36) Exactly, yeah. Okay, so let's move on to virtues and vices, not just strengths and weaknesses.
Joshua (32:48) That was great distinction. Why virtues and vices, not just strengths and vices? They get back to language that we've lost.
Lisa (32:52) Yeah.
Lisa (32:57) I would say first off start off with what the the definition of virtue, vice
Joshua (33:03) That's great. I should probably get a good definition. Do you want me to look it up? If you want to. Virtue is about good and moral behavior. I that's that's kind of a yeah, virtue is like the good things that we do. Vices are the bad things that we do. If if I could simplify it. Because sometimes sin
has such a spiritually negative like condemning tone and sometimes what you do is just stupid. There's this great line, you know, we've got little kids, so cars are saying Johnny loves cars. And there's this great line in cars one after Lightning McQueen almost wins the j by a long shot almost wins the pissing.
Cup but doesn't go in for tires, tires, no tires, just gas and ghost. And then the king, who's been racing for a long time, is like, you know, kid, you got more talent and one lug nut than most kid most cars out in the whole car. He said, thank you. That's so nice of you Mr. But you're stupid.
Lisa (34:20) Yeah.
Joshua (34:20) And we we quote that sometimes 'cause we'll s do something but you're stupid. And so vice sometimes sometimes it is sin, but sometimes it is just you're stupid. It's foolish behavior, it's not helping your cause, but it can end up in sin and it can end up h hurting you. Likewise virtues are the things that
I love the whole idea of reaping and sowing. It's like the spirit of the flesh. What's the scriptures like, you know, if you if you sow into the spirit you'll reap eternal life, but if you sow to the flesh, then then reap you the the life the mindset on the spirit I love this is life and peace. But the mindset on the flesh is death.
Lisa (35:14) Yeah.
Joshua (35:15) There you go. There's your reaping is sewing right there. So it's like that thing, man. It's the what are you sewing in your character? And not just with all the heavy spiritual kind the nation of sin and death. Like, although it can end up there. Sometimes it's just I like that it's a little more, am I doing good for myself or am I doing bad, right? Am I sewing good or bad? Am I
character that's why I like the very chilling advice. And we all it doesn't have to be like it can be having one too many drinks. It can maybe your thing is video games or smoking weed or just to de-stress after a day at the office. That's real. Maybe you spend too much time on the golf course. Maybe you eat a little too many sweets. You know, that's a thing.
My wife is wonderful but she lo you know, like my thing's whiskey, her things ice cream, right? Like we've all got our say I'm not driving in here, but like for the ladies out there. So ver we know what our vices are, right? The things that we do to numb or avoid or to get
comfort and there's no judgment. It's just like what are the vices? What are yours? That's good knowledge to have. And for me it's like when my vices go up, that's my warning sign. Right. It's like wee wee like literally I'm like I'm not in a good spot. I'm like reaching from my vices more. Right. Likewise what and this is something like we really lost is like
You know how I always talk about like integrating our wins? Because it's so easy to focus on the negatives in ourselves. I know a lot of folks who cannot own their strengths. I'm like, hey, what are you you're good at? Likewise, what are the virtues you are seeking to instill into your character and life? And a lot of folks couldn't
Joshua (37:30) Do you know what yours are, right? Like I think one of them, I mean I think we're trying to gratitude and generosity, I got first life, like spirituality, community, integrity, purity. If you're looking for what are virtues and vices, there are like the 13 virtues out there, like Benjamin Franklin and those guys like
Prudence, temperance, justice, fairness, that's all I can't remember off the top of my head. Moderation. These are some of the like more classical virtues, but there's biblical virtues as well. And so what I have found and why this is important, sorry to go still on virtues and vices.
Is because they're not strengths and weaknesses. Yeah, they're not strengths and weaknesses. We have strengths and weaknesses built into our personality and our wiring. These are aspects of your character that you can grow in or or not. Right. And so they're not strengths and kind of built in. They're a little more
Lisa (38:33) Awesome.
Lisa (38:52) Strengths and weaknesses are more like
Joshua (38:55) built in and you can you can apply those skills. Virtues and vices are like what what is the good and bad of your character that you operate. Right correct. Yeah they're character and there are character traits you can develop over time.
Lisa (39:11) Yeah. They're choices like w we were talking about before, like the habits that play into character. Th like you can practice habits such as being patient. Like that can't be a habit. Being courageous, being brave, being disciplined. Those are all
Joshua (39:26) Moderation.
Joshua (39:31) Generous, being like yeah, yeah. Those would be the habits of character. Right.
Lisa (39:39) But those build into virtues and vices eventually, I feel like. Whereas strengths and weaknesses, again, skills slash personality. Yeah, exactly.
Joshua (39:52) And growth and growth, yeah. What I wanna say was, likewise the the scriptural principle of sowing in the spirit or the flesh, it's like the two w wolves analogy. Every man's got t two w wolves in them, a good wolf and an evil wolf, which one wins? The one you f the one you feed.
Virtue and vice is the same thing. It's like you don't stop vicing. Right. You build you feed the positive wolf. You feed virtue in your life. So and then it crowds out the ver the it's like it's you don't stop sinning. You you are consumed with the greater affection of for love of God. And it's that thing. And so a lot of times
and this is an important conversation because if you are a leader, if you are an entrepreneur, if you are a founder, if you are an innovator, if you are not just kind of clocking in and clocking out and maintaining the status quo.
Your stress levels will be greater than everyone else's. Your responsibility levels will be greater than everybody else's. Your levels of isolation, anxiety, pre financial pressure, I think what I read some stat that founders, leaders are more likely to have to
Precussion, anxiety, some type of of a of addiction, mental I mean all this stuff, right? 'Cause why the stresses are there. So this stuff matters. Right. Because
Joshua (41:52) We don't like to t talk about, you know, the vices that we have in our lives. Right. And and usually it's just a more it's kind of a shame-based conversation rather than there's a way out. Right. And it's alright, God's with you and He's gonna help you out and there's a pathway out. And that's the beauty of the scriptures. That's the beauty of
Jesus, like he calls you up and out. Exactly. So anyways, that's why I like having the virtue vice conversation because it's implicitly there's a way out immediately when you start talking about it. Right. So
Lisa (42:22) Yeah.
Lisa (42:34) Yeah. We did have a whole podcast of it. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm gonna we're gonna start shifting because our next episode will be on leadership, the next pillar of the Risen project. And so
Joshua (42:36) The virtual thing is pretty neat.
Lisa (42:57) As I said, we're gonna start bridging into that. So why can't we separate the health of the leader from the health of the organization or the team? And and I'd really like to really focus more on integrity of spirit, soul, and body, which we touched on last time but didn't really fully get into as to why that's so important. I love your seven Fs.
Joshua (43:26) Mm-hmm.
Lisa (43:27) and how we integrate that into our character building when we are working with a leader. And so I want you to just kind of talk a little bit more about that.
Joshua (43:41) I feel like there's like two or three questions. Sorry. I'll I'll I'll start with one. Why can't I liked it, it's a good question. Why can't why can we not separate the the character health of the leader versus the health of the organization? There's this really fascinating, you know, a lot of folks think of like, my social network, right? Or my social
Lisa (43:44) Yeah.
Joshua (44:11) Yeah, like, you know, your sphere of influence or whatever. That's helpful kinda. I remember whether you like him or hate him, Dr. Jordan Peterson is a brilliant man. And I remember this one thing he said about you're not like a how did you say I don't remember the other paradigm he was
speaking against one against but you're you're more like a node in a network so you interact and we'll probably know upwards of a thousand people and interact with a thousand people in your life on a kind of a regular basis like you will influence a thousand people regularly whether you realize it or not you're touching a hundred folks
regularly so you're influencing a hundred they're influencing a hundred folks regularly you're already at ten thousand people you're at one more step you're at over like you're at a million and ten like you can like you just you this is the butterfly effect like I don't know if you've heard of the butterfly effect like a butterfly flaps its wings on the other side of the earth it can
cause a herc. Kane it's I mean, to think of that word as that powerful people don't wanna think like that. I'm just doing over here doing my thing. It's not hurting anybody. You're a dumbass. Like you know what I'm saying? Like it matters. You matter. You're a node in a network and so everything you do is within short order. It is affecting the world around you. That's why you cannot divorce the character and the health of the leader from the
Health and effectiveness of the organization. Right. The k the leader is steering the ship, man. And so if this l leaders are drunk at the wheel, you're gonna be off course, man. Sorry, using a bunch of meta pores there, but the second question was around the stuff and F.
Lisa (46:28) Integrity of spirit, soul, and body linked to the seven edges.
Joshua (46:32) Yeah, yeah. So and this is like
Then back to this idea that this is in tangible stuff. There is no measurements of character. You can say, he's got a good character or a bad character. What does that mean? How do we actually build a good character? And so it's very subjective. It's subjective. And so building I think a lot of models, you know me, I'm I always got some diagram I just freaking thought up. And so
Lisa (46:53) Listen to the
Joshua (47:06) models help bring some objective reality or some I like the word handles. You know like okay let me get a handle on this thing that is kind of subjective or whatever and so the 7Fs are kind of a build out of I s saw a lot of coaching groups and
Things like this doing faith, fitness, family, and finances. And they would work the four apps with their leaders. And I like it because it gives you okay, if my faith is strong, my fitness is good, my family's good, my finances are good. I'm pretty good. I just found it a little incomplete, and so I build out friendship, freedom.
Lisa (48:04) Mm mm. Freedom's not on our list, is it?
Joshua (48:08) It should be for the s thumb and Fs. Friendship, Freedom, and F fulfillment were the other three. Fun okay. Fr fun's fun too. I would say that's in the f fulfillment category. Are you enjoying y your life? 'Cause a lot of laders they they can be kinda all work no play type of folk. And it doesn't yeah, so anyways, if you wanna you jump into that.
Lisa (48:16) I have fun.
Lisa (48:36) So so your sev sorry, just to repeat, your seven Fs are faith, family, fitness, finances, friendship, freedom, and fulfillment.
Joshua (48:44) Yeah, and I I would say the first f four are really about you the leader. The last three f friendship, a lot of leaders don't have friends. They get isolated, it's all work, it's all all mission, it's all profit and loss, and they don't f
Friends. They really don't that's I'll be honest with you, man, I saw something el something like it's like ninety seven percent of leaders like don't can't name like a a real close friend, like or something I've bunkers like that. So I think this is one of the reasons the Risen project exists. So Christian leaders do not fall victim to isolation like I did. Right. And burn out a ministry, like you know, and like we want to help leaders
Have friends, have support structure. Freedom, that's the virtue-based thing. It's like, are you fighting the good fight to kill your sin, to live a virtuous and righteous life? Because again, we can get focused on the externals and gain the world and lose our soul. And so, are you seeking to live a life of freedom? And last one is for.
So
crying baby. Don't worry, we've got grandma over here. F fulfillment, unfortunately I think a lot of people, especially in America and the West, fulfillment is more about fun. It's about travel, it's about the new car, the Rolex, you know, the new trip or whatever it is. You know.
Joshua (50:38) whatever experience. Fulfillment I I think those are good. I think you should have goals you work for. Fulfillment is actually found more in you know, are you serving?
And is your life of service to others? Are you having wonderful experiences with your children? Right. Are you present? Or what else? It it's generosity. These are some of the things that actually like just like research based create the most fulfillment. S serving others, giving to others, contributing back, serving your family, being like the ideal not ideal spouse or whatever, but like
showing up the way that your family actually needs. Like these are the things that are truly fulfilling. Yeah. Also some goal achievement and some, you know, experiences and don't get me wrong, I want to drive a fast car. It's is that stuff. And so I think sometimes we get how would you say it transactional in our our thinking and so I like this
Seven and after sort of wheel of life. So we've got quick gauges on how we're doing holistically. So spirit, soul, and body, community, friendships, like all of it, man. All of it matters. But when you get locked into work mode, you can just be focused on profit and loss. Right. And you can gain the world and lose your soul.
Lisa (52:18) Yeah.
Joshua (52:20) And if you do that, you become a c unhealthy leader that will affect the health of your your team, your culture, and your organization.
Lisa (52:32) Right, exactly. We're running out of time, so I'm gonna kinda I'm gonna tell a little story and then go into the last bit. So so a couple couple months ago, probably at this point, Joshua's stepdad and I got in a conversation. He has a he has a different worldview than we do.
Joshua (52:42) Alex the real
Lisa (52:59) things. He was raised in New York. Yes. He was raised in New York, Jewish, businessman. Did things for for money. Like that was like, I mean, they built an amazing empire basically. Joshua's mom and him they had seven eye care businesses.
Joshua (53:02) Brox Jew.
Shrew business man.
Joshua (53:25) Nine plus two plus two opticals, I think like a hundred and twelve employees at one point, like doing the thing, man. Nine figure business, like
Lisa (53:36) Right, exactly. But he
Joshua (53:42) And A th I'm sorry.
Lisa (53:44) but he as I said, he doesn't have the same kind of worldview that we've got in certain aspects. And he's always asking us or bringing to us business ideas of where we could make money. And the latest one that he brought us a couple months ago was a burger chain. And and I just looked at him and I was like, I was like, I don't want to do burgers.
I was like and he's like he's like why the prophet is there, like the like it would be big, like you like people would come, it's like like all the worldly success that you could possibly imagine would come with this burger joint in his mind. And I just looked at him and I was like, I don't want to spend my life and my energy and this sounds I'm no offense if you own a burger joint.
No, like seriously, no, like seriously, like no offense if you own a burger joint. Like if you b believe in it, go for it. But I was like, I personally don't want to invest our life, our and our money, our time into building a fast food.
Joshua (55:06) What were you actually gonna say? Being part of the problem or
Lisa (55:11) Yeah, into a fast food chain because I see that I personally is one of my convictions is I see that as part of a problem in where America is today. In the world is today. I mean the the obesity, all the things. Like there's just there's so many health. And and as Joshua said earlier, I love a sweet. So like I'm not like I'm not a s I'm not a prude or anything like that, but I just like
Joshua (55:36) No, but I think you you hit squarely. Like I don't wanna I don't wanna be p I don't wanna invest our life contributing t to the
Lisa (55:43) Right. I want I want to build a I want to build something that we can be proud of of our kids living in the wake of. Yeah. Like I I yeah, I I wanna put I want to provide things in this world that in fifty years when we're gone, our kids are like, Thank you, mom and dad, for doing that. And so like to go from that,
I would say what's the difference between building something big and worldly successful and building something that's built to last? And how does your character play into that?
Joshua (56:28) Yeah, that's really beautiful. That's awesome. I love that. So this is s and by the way, there's nothing wrong with turning a coffee. And but it's like I I it was interesting. So I was at a a group with a highly winning high school football
Lisa (56:41) There's not.
Joshua (56:53) coach in our study this morning and he's basically kind of describing the same thing. He's like, I have been focused on the wins and the losses. And now we're kind of hitting a few L's after we were expecting a blast off this season. And it's like I shaking me up. It's worldview guys shriking up.
And so basically back to this idea of motive, the inner world. Basically he was like questioning his identity, questioning his mindset, and questioning his values. He didn't use that language, but but I spoke to them after him like, so we gotta build your worldview based on God. And so if you're a Christian leader.
And and basically w what we said is like he's like, you know, I my job is I have to perform and I have to win. And but I said it but I said about you can't be a slave to it. Right. It's not who you are. And likewise, worldly success is not bad in and of itself. It's like money is not bad, it's a tool. Right. It it but it's like is it your God? Right. And it's that thing. And so
I kinda I know this sounds c cliche, but I come back to mission, vision, and values a lot. And a lot of people, when the mission or the vision is just monetary success, you're starting with the wrong end goal, so you're solving for the wrong problem. Right. And so the difference between worldly success and building what last, I think is a values.
Question. It's like what you value? You know, that was a values quite that was a difference in values. Right. Difference in worldview. And so I always it's the the answer is usually like two, three layers beneath what you're you know, what you're trying to solve for. It's like you and are s
Joshua (59:08) that you're not even comparing apples and or Right. Right. And so I would say
getting clear on your motives, your values, what your mission and vision for your life actually is. Those become your organizational character. Like mm mission vision mission, vision and values is kind of like organizational development 101.
But just like your stated values, I am a respectful person. I mean I care about integrity and being being on my word. You can say that stuff all day long, but if it doesn't actually drive the boat, it doesn't matter. And so usually when we you know, that's one of the things I would do with an organization is actually get a true mission, vision, and values.
Because those are your heading and those are the things that become the filter and the screen for your organizational actions, like your life vision, your values, your motives, your character, are that for your own life. And so this is where we get into
Leadership. We get into organizational development, organizational leadership strategy, building a c culture that actually births your values in integrity-driven way into the life of your organization.
Joshua (01:01:01.472) So I think that's a good place to start because that's really where that's really where leadership, the pillar of leadership, just like we must have an integrity-driven character that builds trust, that guides us in the day-to-day, that really is our heading and
Lisa (01:01:08.758) Yeah.
Joshua (01:01:23.064) North Star base, especially if you're a Christian, all those should be founded on Christ and His life, death, resurrection, and His teachings. Likewise, organizational good, what do we say at the Risen Project? Good strategy makes vision possible. And this is where getting into organizational leadership.
Mission, vision, values, strategy, culture, they become the same for your organization as your character is for you. Exactly.
Lisa (01:02:03.724) Literally, you took the words out of my mouth. That is what I was going to say. You like we do this together. We built the Risen Project as one.
Joshua (01:02:08.654) It's almost like a
Yeah.
Joshua (01:02:17.879) Almost like we co-founded this that, boy.
Lisa (01:02:20.098) Yeah. Alright, I'm gonna close out in prayer for you our listener. And join us on the next podcast when we talk about leadership.
Joshua (01:02:31.042) Let's let before that let's let's talk application real quick. I'd love you to think about is there an area in your character that you've been comp compromising on lately? Is there an area that you've been negotiating with God where he's just asking you to obey? I've got mine, they're in
comfortable I'm already kinda i itching my seat a little bit. Is there a virtue that you need to lean in and a vice you need to war against? And lastly when I when we talked about the seven Fs which one of those do you feel like you need to focus on so you are a more healthy and well-round
the leader. I think if you asking yourself a few of those questions on the back end will be can be life changing, but at the very least will be helpful for the next season of your leadership. And if we can help you at all, if you need someone to walk alongside you, please. Alright. Now you can pray.
Lisa (01:03:45.964) Good, yes all right father we thank you so much for for building our characters for creating us uniquely and wonderfully thank you father for putting us here on this earth with purpose and with
a design in mind for us and father i pray that the that those listening that they start leaning into who it is that you've created them to be that they start really honing in on their their character and walking in their character formation journey and father i pray that
I pray that this episode was helpful, that they go back to listen if if there's something that they might need to hear again. And Father
Just grow us all, build us all so that we can build things that last for you. Build things that our children and their children and their children can walk in for years to come and you. And
Bless everyone as we walk into the rest of this week. Help us to live out our godly character. Help us to be patient, be humble, be kind, be courageous and brave and be integrity-driven in who we are. In the Lord's name I pray.
Joshua (01:05:29.438) Amen. Amen. Thanks for listening to the Built to Last Podcast.
Lisa (01:05:34.83) Yeah.
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